The allure of ‘the local’

The allure of ‘the local’ and the Centre of East Anglian Studies. Carole Rawcliffe, Professor Emeritus of Medieval History and former CEAS Director, in conversation with current CEAS Director Dr Richard Mills.

RM: So, let’s start by talking about how you came to work in Norwich. What stage of your career was that, and which opportunities did UEA offer to further your research interests?

CR: Well, it was a big stage in my career, because it’s when I changed completely from being a political historian of the 15th Century to moving into medical history, and into urban history. I was working on the History of Parliament, but I was already starting to publish a little on the history of hospitals and public health. And the opportunity came up to write a history of the Great Hospital here in Norwich. It became clear that I couldn’t do this in my spare time, because there was this enormous archive… How enormous it was, nobody really let on. But it was big. I knew that it was big. And so, Professor Alfred Hassel Smith, then director of the Centre of East Anglian Studies, suggested we apply for a Wellcome Trust Grant, and I never thought we’d get one, but we did. We got a three-year grant. I decided to do something very rash, which was to throw in my permanent job on the History of Parliament and to gamble on turning myself into a medical historian. I had this grant, and when I came here I was placed into the Centre of East Anglian studies, which was then a separate department. It was completely autonomous. And the director was Professor Richard Wilson. Both he and Hassel Smith were immensely supportive. So much so that when I finally produced the book on the Great Hospital I dedicated it to them. And it was a major project. I had no idea when I started how important it would be. Because the hospital is the only one in England to have a huge archive and a building. The mediaeval buildings still stand. Most medieval hospitals were destroyed during the Reformation… So, the Great Hospital was in a sense a substitute for all the other ones that had been destroyed. I ended up effectively writing a history of English hospitals. The book came out in 1999. It was a bit late, but it finally did come out.

RM: I should say at this point that my daughter’s first lecture was as a babe in arms, when her mother and grandfather came to one of your talks about the Great Hospital a decade ago. We got her started young! And so, as you said, over the years you’ve looked at grand themes in history, from the history of medicine in the medieval world, including leprosy, hospitals, and urban health in England and beyond. And yet, it is evident from your publications that you keep being drawn back to ‘the local’. What’s the appeal of the so-called ‘local’, and which opportunities does it offer to improve our understanding of the past as a whole?

CR: Well, I should start by saying that if we were in France we wouldn’t have this discussion, because doing local history is seen as being the way into greater historiography. But it’s impossible to write big general histories without the in-depth, drill-down history that one can do from local records. And Norwich is amazing, because it not only has the records – and it has some of the finest medieval records in Europe – it also has the archaeology, much of which has been published, which is unusual, and it has the buildings. We’re sitting here in the Forum, and we can just look out at the wonderful Church of St Peter Mancroft… We’ve got the Guildhall, we’ve got the largest friary still standing in England. We’ve got the Castle, the Cathedral, all these parish churches, and the Great Hospital. So, it’s like being in a sweetshop if you’re a medieval historian. But one thing that I learned when I came to the Centre was really crucial in my development. Because, up to that point, I had focused entirely on documents. And being in this mix of people who were archaeologists, architectural historians, those who worked on landscape of course – with Tom Williamson and the landscape historians – who thought about bodies on the ground, was very influential to me. Because I couldn’t imagine now writing the sort of history I write, without including all these aspects. So, coming to UEA, and coming to the Centre, this is what was crucial. It was a real eye opener in an absolute sense, in a literal sense, because it taught me to think about wider aspects of history. Everything I’ve written since, well almost everything, has had this landscape, topographical or archaeological, or art history impact. It’s converted me into being an interdisciplinary historian. So CEAS, in a sense, made me as a historian.

RM: That’s fascinating. I have been digging around in the Centre’s archival materials, and I found the initial proposal to the UEA Senate, which I have here.

CR: Oh, my goodness. It’s typed, on a wonky typewriter!

RM: Yes. It’s dated June 1966, and explains that the Centre would aspire to encourage the concerted interdisciplinary study of ‘a clearly defined and homogenous region’, and to place the university in the vanguard of ongoing work by local people with active interests in history, archaeology, sociology, and other disciplines. Could you tell us a bit more about your first impressions of CEAS and the extent to which you think it delivered on these aspirations?

CR: Well, I came to the Centre in 1992, and this was just after the death of a man called Alan Carter, who had been running a project called the Norwich Survey. This was a largely archaeological study, but with big historical input, of the growth and development of Norwich as an urban settlement throughout the Middle Ages. A lot of the people who had been involved in the survey were still around. So, you had archaeologists in the department, and you had the landscape historians as well. And you had a lot of people who were, or had been, students, mature students, and had gone on to do doctorates and had then become involved in various projects and were associated with the Centre. You also had people like me, who were on outside funding, and would come in… So you had this mélange, with a lot of PhD students, archaeologists, landscape historians, and we had the film archive which was part of the Centre at that time. It was a very busy place with a lot going on. There were seminars, which ran regularly, there were lecture series, there were conferences. And I got the impression of it being a very busy place with a lot of people, who weren’t all academics, who were involved in what was going on. For example, through the Centre I met Brian Ayres, who was the county archaeologist. And those were the days when Norfolk had an archaeologist service, which lasted from 1972 to 2017. It was great working alongside people like Brian, who really opened your eyes to looking at the city and the region in a different way. What was really exciting about the Centre was not just its interdisciplinarity, but also the fact that there were lots of people from outside, from the region, for instance from Suffolk, doing all these different projects, who were tied into it. The Centre in those days had members, and many of them were doing their own independent research. It had quite a buzz and was doing what is now called outreach and impact studies. You actually saw that interchange between people in the region and people in the academy. We were really doing what the Research Excellence Framework wants universities to do now, but before it actually became a mandate.

RM: Could you tell us something about that relationship between CEAS and organisations external to the UEA? How did that function?

CR: Well, the Centre had a steering committee, and many of the people who were on it were involved in some other regional activities. You had people like Norman Scarfe and John Blatchly, and these were very eminent people in the region who were involved in lots of local projects. And the Norfolk Record Society, which I eventually chaired, was chaired by Hassel Smith at that time, and he was still in the Centre when I arrived, running the Bacon Project. So, there were a lot of interconnections between these various societies. The NAHRG was also closely involved with the Centre. It was very much a hub. Other things that we did included a lot of seminars where local people turned up, and we also had outside speakers, eminent speakers from around the world who came in and addressed local audiences. There were also the conferences and they were very interesting and exciting. One of them, for instance, was about East Anglia and the North Sea World in the Middle Ages, and that gave rise to a book. That brought a lot of very eminent historians into the Centre, both locally based and from around Europe. In addition to that, the Centre also had its own publications. These were done in the university printing unit. We had studies in East Anglian history, as one-off pamphlets… So, there was a lot of work done that facilitated the work of local scholars being published by the Centre.

RM: One thing I’m trying to do at the moment is to gather copies of everything that CEAS published, because regrettably we don’t have a full record.

CR: Yes, some of them were very good. The standard of production was high because there were some wonderful people who were really keen. They were very enthusiastic about doing these local productions. Some of them were of a very high quality. Other material generated by the Centre was be produced by Boydell & Brewer, who publish a lot of local and regional material. It was refereed and produced to a very high standard.

RM: Yes, and they still are highly active in this area.

CR: Yes, they are. And in those days, there were a lot of mature students who came in. Sometimes in their 50s or 60s, and you don’t get that too much now because the funding isn’t available. And there were a lot of people who did courses down at Wensum Lodge who also became attached to the Centre through continued education. And now that’s gone, so there’s much less of that. So, there was a very strong connection, a feed-through of mature students with a real passion for regional history.

RM: And that brings us nicely to the contemporary picture. CEAS ceased to be a membership organisation some time ago and now functions with limited resources. However, we remain committed to the founding principle of engaging with active local people beyond the boundaries of the university, while also inspiring academics and students to turn their attention to the region’s rich past. With these objectives, we relaunched the annual Spring Seminar Series at UEA in 2023, and have begun the process of reaching out to local organisations. How do you envisage the Centre’s role in the future?

CR: I think the advantage that you have which we didn’t, even though the cultural environment has changed, is that in the 90s we didn’t have the internet. A lot can now be done virtually. You could bring together all these different organisations. I see the Centre still has a hub, but as an electronic hub if you like. I think it can still play a major role in linking organisations together and helping to promote what other organisations do. For example, some of the conferences and things that were published at UEA generated exhibitions at the Norfolk Record Office. When Richard and I edited our history of Norwich, the NRO did an exhibition for that. The North Sea World also had an exhibition. Well, we might not be able to do so much of this now due to the budget, but this could be done electronically. So, I think a lot could be done to pull institutions together. Alongside other organisations CEAS can contribute. There is also an opportunity to facilitate the research of individuals by giving them the opportunity to write blogs and interconnect virtually. So, there’s a lot we can still do.

RM: Wonderful. And finally Carole, what are you working on now with an East Anglian connection?

CR: Well, I’ve done two local projects, and they feed into wider ones. I’ve got very interested in fires, so I’ve done quite a long piece for Norfolk Archaeology, which is on the great fire of Norwich. Which was in 1508, not 1507, and which actually destroyed the whole of central Norwich. From the cathedral, right through to the west, to St. Benedicts. This had a major impact on the city’s architecture and economy. So, I’ve been working on that, and I’m hoping to build it up into a book which will be a study of urban fires in general. Alongside this, for purely accidental reasons, I have become very interested in Norwich’s hermits. Norwich had a large collection of hermits in the later Middle Ages. But you don’t think of hermits living in the middle of towns, do you? And you don’t think of hermits making wills and being quite well off. But Norwich had a very interesting collection of these people, who reflect on the mercantile society, reflect on religion in the city, which of course was very vibrant in this period. So, I’m working on that. And we need to remember, of course, that not all readers of this website will realise that for a lot of England’s history Norwich was the country’s second city. It was hugely rich and very influential. And so, this is another reason for us to go back and think about it in that period.

RM: I look forward to reading more. Thank you very much Carole.

Tuesday, 2nd October 2023, The Forum, Norwich